Wednesday, September 04, 2013

Christian universalism

But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die..." (Gen 3:4).

The first universalist?

6 comments:

  1. Actually most CU's, including myself, believe God raises people from the dead. I believe people do die but I also believe God is big enough to restore them. So I think this line of argument fails.

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    1. Physical death isn't the only "death" in view in Genesis.

      In any case, based on what you've said, we won't stay dead. Thus, according to CU, the serpent was ultimately right in the end.

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  2. For me, It still doesn’t follow. Allow me to explain:

    a) If the death the serpent was referring to was spiritual death than CU is totally compatible with the claim that the serpent lied, for CU endorses that there was a spiritual death.

    b) If the death the serpent was referring to was physical death, then CU is totally compatible with the claim that the serpent lied, for CU endorses that people do in fact die due to sin.

    If life is given after death, do you believe that means the person never “really” died? Based on what you said, you don’t believe Jesus actually died, since he was raised from the dead. If you believe he did die, though he was raised from the dead, then why Can’t CU believe that A&E died though they might be raised from the dead?

    Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems that this argument is very strained.

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    1. Hello Auggybendoggy,

      1. First of all, let's back it up. This was meant more as humor, not formal argument.

      Of course, you could say the humor misses the point. But my aim wasn't to convince. I don't think it would work if someone doesn't already agree with my assumptions. They'd probably just roll their eyes or something.

      2. However, if you wish to take it as some sort of formal argument, well, inasmuch as I can say anything, I'd say this. As you say, we can construe the serpent's words in more than one way. Not only physical vs. spiritual death, but also temporal vs. eternal judgment. On the one hand, yes, he lied, because we do die. But on the other hand, if Christian universalism is true, then the serpent ultimately spoke the truth, for death is not final.

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  3. Patrick, forgive me for not recognizing the humor. When I first read the tribe, I was totally offended by Steve. But to my embarrassment, I found out Steve often was using humor when I was reading him as being serious. Thankfully Manata helped me overcome my complexity of how evil the guys at the tribe are.

    As for two I myself believe you're reading your presupposition of "eternal" into the text where I don't think the serpent had any such connotation. I read it as simply saying - God said you would die, you'll do no such thing. If you're right, I guess I'll have to work my way to that point of view.

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    1. No need to apologize to me, Auggybendoggy! It's cool. Besides, I know it's best never to get on the wrong side of a Sith lord! ;-)

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